Honda Civic Type R vs Mercedes AMG A35 vs Seat Leon Cupra R vs BMW M2 vs Audi RS3 Sportback vs Renault Megane RSSubscribe to channel: https://www.youtube.com Now at least $12,000 more expensive than before. Four-seater only configuration. Behold the beautiful Cupra Leon VZe. Like its name and multimedia screen, this enigmatic hatchback needs some decoding to make sense to Australians. Essentially, the Leon VZe is a variation of today's eighth-generation Volkswagen Golf. It's really worth matching engines of the cars. Seat Ibiza only takes 7.7 sec for running at 60 mph, Honda Civic takes 7.8 sec to get the same results. It's impossible to drive Ibiza at more than 216 km/h / 134 mph, compared to 220 km/h / 137 mph top speed of Civic. Winner: 2023 Honda Accord. There's little to complain about with either car's trunk space, but the Accord's cargo hold is larger than the Camry's. It offers 16.7 cubic feet in the trunk, which expands with the standard folding rear seats. The Camry offers 15.1 cubic feet of space. Both the Hyundai i30 and the SEAT Leon have a 1.4-liter turbo for this race. However, the Leon boasts 10 HP and 8 Nm extra. As for the Civic, it's not even playing in the same league, as it's been A 40% taxpayer will sacrifice £273 per month to run the Civic, compared with £298 for the Astra and £320 for the Leon. However, an electric car alternative such as the Cupra Born will cost you Honda Civic vs Skoda Octavia Back-seat space isn’t great, while the driving experience is a bit of a letdown when compared to the sharp and agile Skoda’s. SEAT Leon 1.6 TDI SE kNl56jn. Reality sometimes gets skewed at Speed Week. I mean, it's enough of a head-scrambler that we have both the P1 and 918 at our beck and call for a week, but down at the far end of the pitlane an entire touring car team is hanging out. There are laptops and air jacks, tyres by the score, neatly pressed team uniforms and talk of scrubbing in and diff settings. This is Honda Yuasa Racing. They've won 22 BTCC titles. Matt Neal is here, and so is his car. Whichis an estate. that weren't eye-rubbing enough, next to it sits another chunk of hardcore hatchery, the Seat Leon Cup Racer. You can buy one of these for £75,000 if you so wish, and if you spent a chunk more on it, I suspect you could make it road-legal. Or head in the other direction and compete in world touring cars. Or leave it as a bonkers track-day weapon. Seat says it's 30 per cent roadcar, but the only bit I recognise inside is the DSG gearlever. It looks worryingly seems odd that just about every car in the pitlane produces more power and will later get a chance to prove it by hammering these two in a straight line. Corners, though, are another matter altogether. And not an entirely straightforward one. You see, one of these behaves as you'd imagine a touring car to behave. The other doesn't. The only thing predictable about it is its Rowan HorncastleAdvertisement - Page continues belowI clamber into the Leon. There's a brake bias dial, some toggles for the ignition and many buttons on the steering wheel. The only one I actually need switches the cabin fan on and off. It gets hot in racing cars. It has 330bhp, which ought to be a lot for the front wheels to cope with, but is tamed by a hooky differential, punchy track widths and a broad expanse of slick rubber. Keen and smooth and grippy, it gives you a genuine flavour of racing without any intimidation. Well, a little intimidation - even when the rear tyres are warmed through, they'll give you a gentle nudge into oversteer if you chicken out mid-corner, and the DSG gearbox is a bit... it all holds together, the familiar turbo gets its point across effectively, the brakes are mighty and there's a cheeky scuff from the front splitter through a couple of the more twisted corners. And just like the best racers, the Leon then breaks down when we drive it slowly for tracking pictures. The next day, a man with a laptop comes. It makes no odds - the engine has had a strop. No laptime. This is a shame, as I'm 100 per cent sure it would've been faster than Matt Neal's racecar. With me driving, at this is Matt's actual racing car, not a demo or development car, and the process here is more complex. Matt has to warm it up and scrub in a new set of tyres. I have a lesson, during which I learn the Civic has a very active front diff and that I mustn't fiddle with the buttons, plus notice that the engineers and mechanics appear to be even more apprehensive than I am. They demand I wear race overalls, but, short of stripping Stig, the only set available belongs to Matt himself. So I'm not only driving his car but wearing his clothes. Matt is 6ft 6in. I look like an Oompa Loompa. I couldn't care less. I'm about to drive a front-running BTCC car, and if it drives as simply as the Leon, this will be a walk in the Corner one: massive rear-end skid - no heat in the rear tyres. Corner two: I do one thing with the steering, but, when I get back on the power, the car chooses a different direction entirely. Corner three: I turn the steering wheel, and nothing much happens. I panic and throw more lock on, at which point the front end bites abruptly and the rear slides again. Corner four, the hairpin: a repeat of corner one. Corner five is a heart-in-mouth fast left-hander onto the back straight. I'm so cowed, I'd have been faster in the - Page continues belowClearly, there's a lot going on here: the chief culprits being tyre temperature, a hilariously mobile rear end and a front diff that's too clever for its own good. I'm amazed how quickly - and noticeably - heat builds in the tyres, and lap two is a bit calmer. But the harder I go, the more aggressive the rear steering gets and the busier the diff. I have many methods of steering the car, only one of which is the wheel in front of me. That, the diff, the rear end and brakes can be used in any combination you see fit, all at the same time - and I've never been much of a multitasker. Everything affects the car's trajectory; it never seems to take the same corner the same way on any two laps. My brain struggles with the data starts to gel eventually, but if this Civic has taught me anything, it's just how ridiculously tricky it is to set up a touring car to go fast. You could spend days tweaking diff lock-up, damper rebound, rear camber and all the rest. After a few more laps, I decide that this would be a very good way to spend a few days. It's absorbingly tricky to drive fast. Bit like the P1. My reality has been skewed ContentGet all the latest news, reviews and exclusives, direct to your clicking subscribe, you agree to receive news, promotions and offers by email from Top Gear and BBC Studios. Your information will be used in accordance with our privacy policy. The SEAT Leon Cupra is arguably the bargain performance hatchback of the moment. It shares many components with the brilliant Volkswagen Golf R, only omitting the four-wheel-drive system, an extra 20hp and around £3,000 extra cost. If it’s sharpness and aggression you’re after, however, the new Honda Civic Type R surely deserves your attention. This wild-looking hatchback has performance to match its outlandish style, and is a worthy contender for the hot hatch crown. On paper though, the SEAT and the Honda are surprisingly closely matched. So which is the car for you? If you’ve already fallen for either, pop either the Honda Civic Type R or the SEAT Leon Cupra into our car configurator to see how much carwow could help you save. Styling SEAT and Honda couldn’t have taken more different approaches to styling. The Leon relies on simple details, making the most of the sharp, attractive lines of the regular car. If anything, it’s even more subtle than its Volkswagen Golf R cousin. Only when you move towards the more extreme 280 Sub8 version do things start to look more wild. In contrast, the Type R is all about big grilles, outrageous side skirts and downforce-inducing wings and diffusers. It’ll certainly get you noticed, but it might be a level of attention not everyone will be comfortable with… Interior The Civic’s interior upgrades aren’t quite as over the top, but they still clearly hint at the performance on offer. The sports seats (which one or two testers suggested were mounted a touch too high) are trimmed in red fabric, while the sporty aluminium gear knob is close to the steering wheel for quicker gear changes. The wheel itself gains flashes of red leather, and is flat-bottomed, like many sporty cars these days. Like the outside, the Leon’s cabin is a little more grown-up than the Civic (or dull, depending on your point of view). The cabin is well-screwed together but it’s all a little too full of black plastic to look special enough. The one saving grace is the steering wheel, which is lovely to hold. When it comes to the sensible stuff, the Leon has a little more space for rear seat passengers (particularly headroom) but the Civic has a huge boot. However, the Leon is offered in ST estate for those needing more room. Driving Despite their vastly different looks, out on the road, both of these cars are exciting and entertaining in equal measure. The Cupra is praised for its tight body control and responsive chassis while the ride – although firm – is never deemed to be uncomfortable. The Leon’s more advanced suspension setup at the rear suggests it will be the more entertaining drive, but the Civic takes all of these traits and moves each of them up another notch. The grip is described as “enormous” by testers and body control is “exemplary”. The steering is sharp and direct and, even if it is lacking in some feel, it’s still an improvement over the variable-ratio setup the Leon uses. The Honda’s gearchange action is brilliant and adds to the sporty driving experience. The SEAT’s manual is not quite on the same level, but the optional dual-clutch automatic gearbox allows for rapid shifts or automatic operation if needed. Engines Both the Civic and the Leon use turbocharged petrol engines to send their power to the front wheels only. The SEAT is the slower of the two, yet still hits 62mph from rest in seconds (when equipped with the DSG gearbox) before reaching a top speed of 155mph, says it all really. The Civic? Knock another tenth off the 0-62mph time and add 12mph to the top speed… Four-cylinder turbocharged engines aren’t normally the sweetest-sounding of units, but the SEAT and the Honda both provide a suitably naughty soundtrack to match the performance. Value for money Of the two, the SEAT is the cheaper car to buy. Even before the generous discounts SEAT dealers are willing to offer (particularly through our deal checker) the Leon is just under £2,500 cheaper than the Civic. It’s also worth bearing in mind that the top-spec GT version of the Honda – which adds a better stereo, dual-zone climate control and automatic lights – costs a further £2,300. The Leon is claimed to return which is noticeably better than the Civic’s official figure of However, testers have confirmed that, in real world conditions, buyers should expect much closer to low-thirties from both. When it comes to depreciation, both the Honda and the SEAT should hold their value quite well, and you never know – if you decide to hold onto one for a really long time and if their cult status lives on, they may start to creep up in value again… Verdict Both the SEAT Leon Cupra and the Honda Civic Type R are class-leading hot hatches. On balance though, the Civic is faster, more exciting to look at and a little more thrilling to drive. However, you could easily argue a case for the SEAT. Given that it’s a few grand cheaper to buy – and likely to be cheaper to run, too – any deficiencies it gives away to the Honda are due to the lower price. Overall, the Civic wins out for the ultimate hot hatch driving experience. However, if the purchase price is just a little high or you prefer the automatic gearbox and better ride, you won’t be disappointed with the Leon at all. What next? Pop either the Honda Civic Type R or the SEAT Leon Cupra into our car configurator to see how much carwow could help you save. Check out our deals page for more options or, if you’re still struggling to choose what car you’d like, head over to our car chooser. Home Ask HJ News Reviews Pricing Cars For Sale Advice Real MPG Forum Sat 15 Aug 2020 18:37 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton I want to buy a used car and I'm torn between a Honda Civic i-VTEC ES-T and a Seat Leon ST FR with Tech pack and the 138bhp TSI engine, both from 2014. I'm tempted by the Seat because it gets higher overall ratings in reviews, performs better, and the estate could be handy for taking my dogs out etc. However, the Honda is more sensible on the whole, and some of the gadgets seem better. I want it to last me at least 5 years, probably considerably more, but I only do very low annual mileage, so I'm not overly concerned that the smaller turbo engine might not be so robust (should I be?). My main concern is that the electronics might play up, and this might be one area where Seat is weaker than other VAG cars. But even Hondas aren't perfect in this respect when they get old. Any thoughts? Sat 15 Aug 2020 19:00 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver You do realise that the Civic also comes as an estate?. Boot is massive, not that the hatch's boot is small, it is bigger than most cars in the class (including the Leon). With that out the way, while the Leon is a reliable enough car, long term the Civic would be the one to go for. Going purely on what i have read, the Civic would be more refined and comfortable, the Leon more of a 'drivers car'. The Leon would also be both faster (especially overtaking with the extra torque of the turbo) and more efficient with that great engine. Sat 15 Aug 2020 20:57 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton Thanks. I think you're right, the Civic is the marginally better choice for me, including on grounds of its refinement, and its performance is still more than adequate. I don't specifically want an estate, it just would have been a small bonus. OTOH the hatch should be easier to park, especially as it has a rear camera. I've got some health issues, so I've restricted my choice to what's available fairly locally, otherwise the process would be too stressful. These two just happen to be the two best examples that match my criteria. Sat 15 Aug 2020 23:02 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - SLO76 Both are good used options. Test drive them both to see which appeals more and then hunt down a good example of either. I rate the Civic as a longterm risk free choice but the Leon TSi FR is a particularly nice car, with near diesel economy, good performance, nimble handling and sporty looks but it still rises ok. I’d buy based more on condition and history between these two but if all things were equal I’d probably have the Seat. I’d expand the search to include the Mazda 3 Skyactiv too which is a great used buy. It’s a very pleasant thing to drive, decent on fuel and reliability is top notch. A Toyota Auris Estate is a sensible option too if a bit dull. Edited by SLO76 on 15/08/2020 at 23:03 Sun 16 Aug 2020 00:37 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - SLO76 *rides ok Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:02 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet I know nothing of Seat's. I know a little more Civics because my daughter runs two (and two previous S types), a 2008 as a runabout and a 2016 TypeR, and i get to hear feedback via her cos she's into the Honda scene as it were. Whilst the Civics are very good cars indeed be aware the aircon compressor is a fairly common failure, it failed on the older Civic and also failed on my sons 2013 CRV @ year 4, daugher paid some £500 for aftermarket component fix at her trsuted indy, sons dealer fix would have been some £1400 but was covered under Honda extended warranty. Her newer car has needed some recall work and both times the dealership has made a right pigs ear of the job, first and selling dealership lost franchise, first recall for brake work the dealer left the brakes needing pumping to operate, luckily my son collected the car and the conversation a few minutes later when he returned left them in no doubt...second recall other dealer managed to damage the wiring loom or thereabouts meaning removal of engine to complete repair. I mention these points because sometimes marques get reputations their dealers fail to live up to, this can work the other way too of course, Also make sure either you or a competent indy keep those brake calipers properly serviced (full brake strip clean lube is not part of service schedule), preferably with an annual strip clean lube (and keep those rear parking brake levers lubed wher they pivot on the calipers), like all other Japanese cars the brake calipers suffer from the annual UK salt bath and the effort you put into preventing this issue will pay you back times over....even otherwise bomb proof Landcruisers suffer from this with caliper pistons seizing in bores... arguably this applies to all cars wherever they were made, i'm staggered by the neglect generally of car braking systems but then people neglect tyres just as much, weird doesn't begin to cover it. Edited by gordonbennet on 16/08/2020 at 08:24 Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:00 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - catsdad I had a 2012 Civic hatch until last summer when I changed to a 2018 Golf 122bhp estate. Similar but not identical to your situation then. I have been happy with both. In day to day driving the acceleration feels similar. The main difference is that the Honda needs revs to get the best out of it but I generally drive pretty steadily and rather enjoyed the way it picked up its skirts on the occasions I did call upon its performance. Economy in the Civic was around 45 mpg the Golf is about 50. On my mileage that’s about £150 pa difference. Main dealer servicing on the Honda is relatively cheap, the Golf is about 50% more which negates it’s fuel economy advantage. In general driving and it’s controls the Civic felt solid and substantial, the Golf feels a bit lighter. It’s almost like comparing Duplo with Lego. I never liked the stop start on the Civic as it felt mechanically unsympathetic so I always disabled it. The system on the Golf feels right and I generally leave it working. I am not sure if the Leon has an electronic handbrake but the one in the Golf has made me a convert, other than potential cost of repair. As for luggage space both cars swallow the same suitcases with ease. The Civic is much better in this respect than it looks from outside. And it has the magic seats which even when in the down position offer extra space underneath. Also for dogs do not overlook the magic seats. In the up position you have a large dog friendly space and very low sill entry compared to any boot. You would have to work out his best to restrain the dog though. I echo the points re Honda brakes. I had new rear pads at about 30k and new pads and discs all round at 70k. It also began consuming oil from about 60k at about half a litre every 10k miles. Not a disaster but not ideal. At that point it was six years old and online forums suggested there was an oil issue with 2012 cars so it may not affect the 2014 models you are looking at. Other than that the Civic was very reliable over the six years I ran it. If the Golf proves to be as good I will be delighted .......... and surprised. Edited by catsdad on 16/08/2020 at 09:01 Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:43 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet I echo the points re Honda brakes. I had new rear pads at about 30k and new pads and discs all round at 70k. Excellent post Catsdad. Daughter's typeR had new rear pads, at less mileage than you too, and no it certainly wasn't through gentle or lack of use which is what people tend to say causes premature rear pad wear, her type R sees hard use, she has alternative pads fitted (green stuff springs to mind but i might be wrong) now so will be interesting to see if this improves things. All of the Civics she's had have used a small amount of oil, despite stories to the contrary all engines will consume some oil over a long enough period, i'd be wary of a Diesel especially that didn't use anything at all and be wondering how much was increasing fuel content. Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:26 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton Whilst the Civics are very good cars indeed be aware the aircon compressor is a fairly common failure, it failed on the older Civic and also failed on my sons 2013 CRV @ year 4, daugher paid some £500 for aftermarket component fix at her trsuted indy, sons dealer fix would have been some £1400 but was covered under Honda extended warranty. Ah, that could be a game changer. I'm sure you're right, because the compressor failed on my sister's 2006 Civic diesel too. It was only a year or two ago though, so it had lasted a reasonably long time. I wonder if they're less stressed in diesels due to the lower revs? She got a replacement part from a breaker, but the aircon specialist couldn't fit it due to difficult access in the engine bay, and her usual (no longer) local garage claimed that the car, which she had dropped off the night before, wouldn't start when they tried to move it into the bay, and would need a Honda specialist to diagnose/repair. Of course we didn't believe their story, but couldn't prove anything, so she gave up on it and sold it as a non-runner. Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:04 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - corax Ah, that could be a game changer. I'm sure you're right, because the compressor failed on my sister's 2006 Civic diesel too. It was only a year or two ago though, so it had lasted a reasonably long time. I wonder if they're less stressed in diesels due to the lower revs? The compressor must be a poor design with some intrinsic fault. I can't understand why Honda have perservered with this component through the same successive models, I would have thought a company like Honda would have changed their supplier if the old slogan is to be believed. I suppose the answer is to replace with an aftermarket compressor. I remember HJ reporting failures on VAG models some years back and recommending that a Sanden compressor be substituted instead. But Honda should have this problem licked by now. Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:46 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton I’d expand the search to include the Mazda 3 Skyactiv too which is a great used buy. It’s a very pleasant thing to drive, decent on fuel and reliability is top notch. A Toyota Auris Estate is a sensible option too if a bit dull. I think I've missed the boat on the SEAT, it's gone from Autotrader. I was considering Mazda, but was put off by the low power for the engine size. That was just me being silly though, it probably means better torque and reliability, and the 0-60 figure is good. Perhaps I should expand my search further. The main reason I narrowed it down to something Asian or VAG was on the advice of a friend who used to manage a garage. I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow, and I'm not keen on paying extra for an Audi or VW badge. My current car is a Citroen DS3, which has been pretty good to me, but i need back doors now and also feel that I've been a bit lucky and should get rid of it before it gets troublesome, and avoid French if I want something I can keep for years. I'm sure I would have a much better choice if I considered Focuses and Astras, and review sites like Parkers say these are right up there with the best in class, but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right? Sun 16 Aug 2020 13:28 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Engineer Andy My main concern is that the electronics might play up, and this might be one area where Seat is weaker than other VAG cars. But even Hondas aren't perfect in this respect when they get old. Any thoughts? I seriously doubt if SEAT electric are any worse than any other main VAG brand - I would say that the main difference between brands is the dealership experience and the expectations vs reality of buyers. Skoda appear to come out on top as regards the dealership experience, with SEAT nearer the bottom in the group, but, like with most dealerships, who owns the local frnachise, and thus how it is run, makes far more of a difference. Yes, how SEAT UK manages those franchises from a QA perspective is important as well, as some makes (like Mazda) have, IMHO, poor UK 'arms' that in my view serve the customer poorly, especially when it comes to making sure dealers are high quality and stamping out bad / dodgy practices. I own a Mazda car but have generally been fortunate with my local main dealership, other owners I know (using other ones) have not fared so well and have not been looked after by Mazda UK. You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg. Just make sure that whatever you choose has a proven FSH, is in good order and is at the very least covered by a dealers 1 year warranty. Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:08 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg. I'll probably stick to a local independent for servicing etc. There's a decent one very close to me which is convenient. I think both the cars for sale I've found are from dealers that are independent or franchised to other manufacturers. How can I tell whether a TSI is belt- or chain-driven? Does it depend on the power output and/or the age? Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:47 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Engineer Andy You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg. I'll probably stick to a local independent for servicing etc. There's a decent one very close to me which is convenient. I think both the cars for sale I've found are from dealers that are independent or franchised to other manufacturers. How can I tell whether a TSI is belt- or chain-driven? Does it depend on the power output and/or the age? Not on power output per se, although it can be a good guide for specific cars - age, sort of - they've come and gone with VAG, but not all at the same time. The best thing is to confirm the engine type code and then find out with an internet search (or ask here - I'm no expert of which engine types they are, but others are). Don't take a seller's word for it, as they could lie to cover up that the car has a less reliable engine or some other part specific to cars built at that time - some which are inherrant faults which cannot be recified or which require a major garage bill to do so. Sun 16 Aug 2020 18:51 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right? In a word, no. Yes, there are engines and transmissions in both Ford and Vauxhall you should probably avoid. But do so, and they are just as good as anything VAG. With Ford, stick to the and n/a petrols along with the Ecoboost petrol, avoid the Powershift DCT auto and they are fine. With the Vauxhall, engine wise, stick with the and turbo petrols and avoid the (Fiat sourced) diesels. Manual and auto boxes are fine. I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow, Not sure i understand this statement?. The equivalent Kia to the Civic would be the Ceed petrol (133bhp) which has only less power than the Honda. Yes, it needs to be worked hard to extract the performance, but that is the same with any n/a options, including the Civic. The Hyundai equivalent, the i30, typically has the 118bhp version of the same engine but both it, and the Ceed, are available as a turbo petrol with plenty of oomph (183bhp for the i30, 200bhp for the Ceed). Sun 16 Aug 2020 21:23 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right? In a word, no. Yes, there are engines and transmissions in both Ford and Vauxhall you should probably avoid. But do so, and they are just as good as anything VAG. With Ford, stick to the and n/a petrols along with the Ecoboost petrol, avoid the Powershift DCT auto and they are fine. With the Vauxhall, engine wise, stick with the and turbo petrols and avoid the (Fiat sourced) diesels. Manual and auto boxes are fine. I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow, Not sure i understand this statement?. The equivalent Kia to the Civic would be the Ceed petrol (133bhp) which has only less power than the Honda. Yes, it needs to be worked hard to extract the performance, but that is the same with any n/a options, including the Civic. The Hyundai equivalent, the i30, typically has the 118bhp version of the same engine but both it, and the Ceed, are available as a turbo petrol with plenty of oomph (183bhp for the i30, 200bhp for the Ceed). I think you missed that I'm after a used car, with a budget in the ballpark of £8000, which typically gets a 2014 car in this class at dealer prices, because I don't see turbo versions of any of those. ISTR reading that the latest generations of Vauxhall and Ford have made considerable improvements in build quality over the generation I can afford. Yes, the Ceed is almost as powerful as the Honda, but either it has a lot less torque, or it's a heavier car, or both, because it's considerably slower, and I remember reading a review that said it feels more lacklustre than the bhp figure suggests. Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:58 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Avant Any make of car is going to have weak areas, so whatever you buy will have an element of risk. Toyotas are know for reliability and longevity, but I get the impression that you'd like something a bit more fun to drive than a Corolla. Try a Mazda 3 and see if you like it: the usual Mazda petrol engine is a non-turbo and needs a lot of revs to make good progress, which may or may not suit your driving style. I don't know why your friend advises you to avoid Fords. There are lots of Focuses to choose from and if you avoid the litre which has a bad reputation, you could get a good one which is at least as good to driver as your original choices. That said, I don't think the Leon or a Skoda Octavia, would be a bad choice provided that you go for the manual tramsmission. Sun 16 Aug 2020 19:33 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton I don't mind it being a bit dull, and would prefer comfort over handling, but I do want reasonably quick acceleration, say 0-60 in under 10 secs. A Toyota Auris turbo might feel more lively in day-to-day driving than the Mazda or Honda, even though it's slower on paper? I used to drive a diesel and miss the pulling power at low revs especially, but with my low mileage now I'd be mad to get a modern diesel. I believe Fords, especially Focuses later than Mk 1, are a bit notorious for electrical gremlins. We used to have a 2002 Mondeo which was a bit dodgy, but otherwise the interior quality felt considerably superior to the Focus Mk 1. Neither of the Ecoboost (or NA engines) satisfy my 10 second rule anyway, so that leaves the Ecoboost. Is that a good engine? (EDIT: No EcoBoosts on Autotrader within my search radius, so I guess it's quite rare, which might not be a good thing). Edited by Tony Houghton on 16/08/2020 at 19:37 Sun 16 Aug 2020 20:39 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver The 0-60 time is pretty much irrelevant unless you constantly find yourself accelerating from a standstill to beyond 60 mph(?). How quick a car accelerates from 30-70mph through the gears, that is a useful measurement but still doesn't take differences in gearing into account (one car may feel faster but an extra gearchange will drop the actual time right down by comparison, same with 0-60). In gear acceleration from 30-50 in fourth or 50-70 in fifth are much more useful for the real world but, along with 30-70 through the gears, are very rarely stated because of the obsession with 0-60. Power to weight ratio, along with how much torque the car has at what revs is what determines how quick a car feels (regardless of gearing). Ultimately (regardless of what the figures may say), a turbo engine is going to feel faster more of the time than a n/a engine of a similar power output unless you thrash it all the time. Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:00 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - SkodaIan My wife's had a 2014 Leon ( TSI 110 engine) since nearly new. It's now at about 80000 miles with no significant problems at all. Only breakdown has been one of the brake disc splash guards coming loose and slipping down scraping on the inside of the wheel. It required a very brief attendance from the AA to remove the wheel to let it fall out, but only because like many modern cars it has no spare wheel or jack so I couldn't do it myself. The engine is plenty powerful enough for a car of that size, and easily does 50mpg on either a motorway or rural run, and a bit less in town. When driving normally, it doesn't feel any slower than the 160bhp in my Octavia. The only real difference is that more revs just seem to make more noise rather than releasing significantly more power when you take it up into higher revs when accellerating hard. The interior feels a bit lower rent than a Golf, but easily as good as a Ford/Vauxhall/Kia etc. Nothing has fallen off or broken inside (despite two young children!) in the five years we've had it. A mate has a had a Civic from a similar era (2015 I think), which has also been completely fine. I think I'd choose the Leon over the Civic, mostly because we have a reasonably priced local VAG specialist who we use for all servicing. There's little point taking a 6+ year old car to a main dealer for servicing, and there are fewer independent garages around who genuinely specialise in Hondas than there are for VAG stuff. Edited by SkodaIan on 16/08/2020 at 23:04 Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:11 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet A mate has a had a Civic from a similar era (2015 I think), which has also been completely fine. I think I'd choose the Leon over the Civic, mostly because we have a reasonably priced local VAG specialist who we use for all servicing. There's little point taking a 6+ year old car to a main dealer for servicing, and there are fewer independent garages around who genuinely specialise in Hondas than there are for VAG stuff. Good point that, lots of VAG specialists about, very few for other makes like Honda unless into the tuning game. Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:29 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Avant "I don't mind it being a bit dull, and would prefer comfort over handling, but I do want reasonably quick acceleration, say 0-60 in under 10 secs. A Toyota Auris turbo might feel more lively in day-to-day driving...." Your next step could be to try a Auris and see if it's lively enough for you. How it feels to you on the road is more important than quoted 0-60 times. In my experience Toyotas, as well as being reliable, are rather better to drive than magazine road test would have you believe. The previous petrol engines in the Auris were I think slower than the Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:15 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - catsdad If acceleration is important then how it is delivered may also be a factor. For me the characteristics of turbo v non-turbo is one of the few really distinguishing left in modern cars. The 122hp Golf and Civic have broadly similar 0-60 times in everyday use. The 148 hp VAG is a little quicker on paper. However the VAG cars deliver this with a turbo boost from the lower part of the rev range upwards while the non-turbo Civic doesn’t kick in until it’s revving at a higher rate. It may be a marginal difference on paper but it feels quite marked driving them in practice. Simply put you need to rev the Civic harder to get maximum acceleration. Doing so makes the engine sing to my ears but others may find it noisy. As Avant says test drives will help work out which you prefer. Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:16 SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet Indeed, i personally don't like having to rev engines hard to get decent go from them and a Honda isn't for me, i put that down to driving lorries for ever and it just doesn't feel right, nor is it enjoyable for me to have to rev an engine high, i suspect many turboDiesel car drivers would find the same, having long ago got used to that huge torque once the turbocharger came on stream, maybe ex t'Diesel drivers find themselves more at home in the new t'petrols. Others like the Honda engine type driving experience, each to their own, my daughter for one though she's finding herself torn between her two cars, the later turbocharged Civic feels a bit dead to her at below spool engine speeds but once above that point all hell breaks loose, where the older NA engine provides in some ways a more fun experience for her despite having much less power as the flat spot at lower revs isn't quite so pronounced, its possible she's finding the typeR might be too rapid for modern roads. Can't knock the general reliability of these Hondas though, she's covered several hundred thousand fast miles in 4 Honda Civics, 2 x 2 litre S types, 1 x and 1 x litre turbo, never had a breakdown as such, one clutch, not cheap, some front suspension parts especially start to wear as the miles climb, again not cheap, and as discussed earlier the obviously weak aircon compressor problem, engines and gearboxes (all manual) trouble free, her first two were will into 150k+ miles and still running reasonably , her first one got bent and scrapped, i seem to recall it was general suspension wear that scrapped her second one simply too much to spend considering its age etc. Edited by gordonbennet on 17/08/2020 at 10:21 The Seat Leon Cupra R is 306bhp of fiery, finely honed fun - but can it match the latest Honda Civic Type R for driving thrills?Regardless of the outcome of this showdown, if you're talking about hot hatches in the conventional sense, the current Civic Type R is the best money can other front-driven car for which you can lay down a deposit at your nearest dealership marries such crushing pace with such a deep-seated sense of mechanical involvement. In fact, the only reason this magazine's road testers elected to bestow upon it four and a half stars is because those so inclined were a little more vociferous in their sentiments than the ones who would give it five. Although it no longer rages, the debate you've probably surmised, we haven't committed editorial hara-kiri and given up the verdict in the first line. Rather, the Honda is the only car in this duo that you can actually buy. Why a nation famous for loosening the purse strings in the pursuit of agile, affordable, peppy shopping carts should be allocated a paltry 24 cars from a run of 799 is anybody's guess, but each right-hand-drive example of the lava-hot Seat Leon Cupra R is now spoken for, which renders this twin test both academic and because even should this £34,995 newcomer bury its esteemed rival in a win that would come as a considerable but welcome surprise, you still can't have one. Fascinating because this is the last Cupra model before 'Cupra' becomes an independent, performance-oriented institution in the manner of Mercedes-AMG. What this car portends–its relative strengths, drawbacks, focus and, most important for us, the ability to entertain is therefore the concern of anybody who might at some point seriously consider buying a hot battle is for the moral victory. Perhaps for you, it's a conflict that the Japanese car has already surrendered. You will by now have formed your own opinion of the FK8-generation Civic Type R's aesthetics, and it may not be entirely favourable. However, with the distinctive-looking Honda sitting longer and wider but no taller than the Seat Leon Cupra R, for sheer presence we're talking cold-blooded murder in classic Championship White, many of the intricacies swallowed up by darker hues emerge: Mitsubishi Evolution-style vortex generators on the trailing edge of the roof; side-skirt fins; a vast ventdraining the front wheel arches of lift-inducing pressure; the way the end-plates of that colossal wing flair at their base. Look closely and you'll notice that even the headlight lenses feature aero mouldings. It's a curious, formidable thing that could only ever have been born in Japan and, to these eyes, it's handsome in the same way haggis is enough about this 316bhp Honda, which starts up with an unexpectedly demure burble lost among the harder frequencies and altogether less sociable amplitude of its rip-snorting rival. Previous Cupra variants based on this third-generation Leon have been phenomenally quick point to point but have tempered that with a demeanour that cruises under the radar. That's not the case here. The front and rear valances, skirts and wing are wrought of genuine carbonfibre (the Honda gets a derisible artificial wrap) and there's copper-coloured detailing everywhere, not least on the intake blades and two-tone 19in alloy wheels, which works far better than it wheels fail to obscure Brembo brakes that are larger than the ones on the Leon Cupra 300 and book-end a front axle that has had its geometry tweaked to offer a degree more negative camber. With new suspension uprights as well, Seat's aim has been to make the chassis feel a little more 'pointy', although the contact patch is 10mm narrower at each corner than the Honda's. Even so, aided by smooth Tarmac and warm tyres, the Cupra R's shockingly direct changes in trajectory threatened to rip rubber from rim on its international launch in Spain last the car through a few British bends and you're greeted by what is arguably its métier. The steering rack has been quickened a touch just off centre and has a crisp levity to it, weighting up naturally and with a steely core that transmits, yes, some genuine feel. The narrow gauge of the rim (manufacturers of even far more expensive, potent machinery, please take note) and indulgently soft Alcantara upholstery that, I suspect, is the same as that used in the new Porsche 911 GT3 certainly help. Overall, it's a fantastic, flickable there's the engine. Rarely is the lump under the bonnet the most memorable aspect of a hot hatch, and that's the case with the Cupra R, although for a four-cylinder workhorse, this one is absurdly peak torque of 280lb ft arrives at only 1800rpm and yet, somehow, that same level of twist is still flooding through the six-speed manual gearbox at 5700rpm. Too much of its character is dependent on exhaust tuning, but a more tractable, cultured four-pot you'll not find in anything with five seats and is a shame, then, that some of the basics – and the more nuanced complexities – are lacking. The seats are too high-set and, strangely, given the magnitude of the bolsters, flat across their backs. The throw of this manual 'box is decently short but giddily light. The brake pedal – quite beautifully positioned in relation to the others – feels too generously servo-assisted and, on its retuned adaptive dampers, the chassislacks the final pinch of pliancy that allows its exertions to fade from your telling, even in wet weather – as on the day of our photo shoot – the adjustability that bubbles up from within the best hot hatch exponents is lamentably absent, although the pace on offer is nothing short of spectacular. On British roads, the overall result is a peculiar device, and one that strongly hints at an uncompromised mission statement but ultimately delivers something of a movie Civic, meanwhile, dispenses a roundhouse, the discombobulating effects of which quickly rearrange your notion of what really constitutes 'feeling'. The scarlet seats not only look fabulous but also cup the torso more securely. Crucially, they set your posterior more purposely low down and the consequent impression – unique among this car's rivals – is of being securely enveloped within the going and you'll find the right sort of heft in the steering and clutch and pleasing resistance in the throttle pedal's action. Response isn't as gloriously sharp as it is in the Seat and, lacking that car's twin-scroll turbo, this 316bhp four isn't as willing at lower crank speeds. However, the scales shift at the top of the rev range, where this over-square VTEC engine feasts on the final stretch of the 7000rpm redline with a zeal that's just a little alarming if you're not ready for it. The Honda also weighs an adult passenger less than the Seat, and you notice one-two that makes the Seat drop a knee comes from the Type R's gearshift and damping. The shift quality – honed assiduously by Honda for two decades – is short, tight, notchy perfection. The suspension, with its new rear multi- links, is something we've criticised in the past for being overly stiff but, in this instance, it simply feels the more adroit. The Civic's nose duly dives for apices with the composure of an ice-breaker cruising through a frozen must be said, however, that in these conditions the Civic's mechanical limited-slip differential has to be exploited more deftly and with greater care than its more forgiving electronic equivalent in the Leon. On low-friction surfaces, it is less predictable, locking up earlier and pushing the nose wide to sometimes startling effect. The risk- to-reward ratio is that much more engaging in the Honda, which raises the stakes further still with its oft-cited penchant for could flay these charges for miles and never find the gap between them to be more than a handful of car lengths. Were the Leon wearing the track-day-spec Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres that a fifth of owners are expected to specify, I dare say it would be the quicker car. Whatever the rubber, it's also the easier of two to live with so would be the preference of the non-enthusiast members of your household. And it's for precisely that reason it loses this contest with its head held high but ultimately by some Civic Type R bottles the sensations common to bona fide sports cars and it's a bottle you get to screw the top off on any road and at almost any speed. In the end, it's simple: this limited- run Seat promises great things for an incipient Cupra brand, but the Honda is comfortably there - Honda Civic Type R: A magnificent achievement from Honda. Tangibly the more involving proposition here, despite the unquestionable quality of its opposition2nd - Seat Leon Cupra R: Phenomenally quick Leon bodes well for the Cupra sub-brand but never feels more than the sum of its admittedly impressive parts Skip to ContentSkip to FooterHonda Civic Type R vs SEAT Leon Cupra & Renaultsport Megane 275 TrophyCan Honda’s new Civic Type R beat SEAT and Renault and blast to the top of the hot hatch class?2 Jul 2015Sales of hot hatchbacks took a nosedive after the global financial crisis, but high-performance family cars are now making a comeback, and their popularity is most definitely on the up. • Best hot hatchbacksAfter a five-year wait, Honda is back in the ring with its new Civic Type R, and it’s spoiling for a fight against the best in the are some big changes underneath that mean this hot Honda now has the firepower to potentially beat the best, including a new, more powerful turbo. However, it faces a tough challenge in the form of our reigning hot hatch champion – the SEAT Leon Cupra – and the old-school favourite, the Renaultsport Mégane seen here in 275 Trophy thrills are what the current crop delivers, and on the face of things the Civic Type R has the practicality to match its blistering real-world performance and agile handling. However, at £29,995 for the standard model, it’s more expensive than both rivals we’ve lined up. So, can the Honda’s extra on-paper pace and versatile cabin edge it ahead of the competition?We put the hot hatch trio to the test on road and track to find out...• Honda Civic Type R review• SEAT Leon Cupra review• Renaultsport Megane 275 Trophy reviewClick the links above to read individual reviews, and scroll down to see which hot hatch comes out on top...Head-to-headTrack focusPerformance modes are the current trend. SEAT’s switchable Drive Profiles (above) let you tailor the different settings, but with no data readouts. Honda’s +R mode is less customisable yet provides extra info, including a 0-62mph timer. And Renault’s RS Monitor gives performance readouts such as cornering g-force.’Ring recordSEAT started the hot hatch war with its Nürburgring lap record of 7: which Renault’s 275 then knocked four seconds off. Honda has now shattered this with a blistering 7: time, making it the fastest front-wheel- drive hatch to lap the are subjective, but the Honda’s eye-popping design may be a bit much for some. The Renault and SEAT are more reserved – although in the case of the Trophy, only just. Swap white for black contrast details on the Leon, and it looks even place: SEAT Leon CupraSEAT’s hold over the hot hatch class continues, thanks to the Leon Cupra’s huge spread of ability. In some areas the others may be more focused, but the figures don’t lie: the Cupra is still sensationally fast. It feels alive to drive, too, and responds to your inputs faithfully to inspire huge confidence. Settle down to a leisurely pace and it’s the easiest to live with. Plus, its price advantage seals the place: Honda Civic Type ROutright power isn’t enough to knock the SEAT off the top spot. However, the new Civic Type R is a resounding success and has been worth the wait. It mixes devilish speed with surprising practicality, but falls short in a few areas. Its styling will divide opinion, it isn’t as well equipped and it can’t match the SEAT’s comfort – but on a twisty road it’s devastatingly place: Renaultsport Megane 275 TrophyThe Mégane RS has aged nicely. Its chassis is as sweet as ever and delivers a brawny hot hatch experience laden with feel. However, costly options are needed to keep up with rivals, so combined with lower economy, steeper depreciation, poorer practicality and a more dated interior, the Renault finishes third. The margin isn’t massive, but rivals are starting to edge further soon…Ford Focus RSDue: 2016 Price: £30,000 (est.) Engine: 4cyl, 345bhpWith similar pricing, plus more power and four-wheel drive, Ford’s new range-topping Focus RS could upstage the Civic Type R when it hits dealers next year. It’ll also offer the practicality of a five-door specs: SEAT Leon Cupra 280Honda Civic Type RRenaultsport Megane 275 TrophyOn-the-road price/total as tested£28,210/£30,450£29,995/£29,995£28,930/£34,475Residual value (after 3yrs/30,000)£12,080/ tax liability std/higher rate£1,455/£2,909£1,719/£3,439£1,658/£3,315Annual fuel cost (12k/20k miles)£1,991/£3,318£2,276/£3,794£2,378/£3,964Ins. group/quote/road tax band/cost33/£526/G/£18033/£558/H/£20536/£598/H/£205Cost of 1st/2nd/3rd service£179/£229/£179£215/£285/£365£399 (3yrs) Length/wheelbase4,271/2,631mm4,390/2,605mm4,312/2,640mmHeight/width1,434/1,816mm1,466/1,878mm1,423/1,848mmEngine4cyl in-line/1,984cc4cyl in-line/1,996cc4cyl in-line/1,998ccPeak power276/5,600 bhp/rpm306/6,500 bhp/rpm271/5,500 bhp/rpmPeak torque350/1,700 Nm/rpm400/2,500 Nm/rpm370/3,000 Nm/rpmTransmission6-spd man/fwd6-spd man/fwd6-spd man/fwdFuel tank capacity/spare wheel50 litres/space-saver50 litres/repair kit60 litres/repair kitBoot capacity (seats up/down)380/1,210 litres477/1,210 litres344/991 litresKerbweight/payload1,395/495kg1,382/318kg1,376/441kgTurning circle/drag metres/N/ metres/N/ metres/ warranty (miles)/recovery3yrs (60,000)/2yrs3yrs (90,000)/3yrs4yrs (100,000)/4yrsService intervals/UK dealers20,000 (2yrs)/12812,500 (1yr)/19618,000 (1yr)/153Driver Power manufacturer/dealer Adult/child/ped./assist/stars94/92/70/71/5^94/83/69/86/5^^83/78/60/56/5^^^ 0-60/ seconds30-50mph in 3rd/ seconds50-70mph in 5th/ secondsTop speed/rpm at 70mph155mph/2,500rpm167mph/2,600rpm159mph/2,500rpmBraking 70-0/60-0/ levels outside/idle/30/70mph70/56/64/70dB71/56/65/71dB73/56/68/73dBAuto Express econ (mpg/mpl)/ milesGovt urban/extra-urban/ urban/extra-urban/ CO2/tax bracket205/154g/km/26%234/170g/km/29%244/174g/km/29% Airbags/Isofix/park. sensors/cameraSeven/yes/yes/£215Six/yes/£2,300+/yesSix/yes/yes/£350Auto gearbox/stability/cruise control£1,355/yes/yesNo/yes/yesNo/yes/yesClimate control/leather/heated seatsYes/£1,055/£360**Yes/no/noYes/part/noMetallic paint/xenons/keyless go£575/LED/noYes/LED/yes£1,300/no/yesSat-nav/USB/DAB radio/BluetoothYes/yes/yes/yes£2,300+/yes/yes/yesYes/yes/no/yesMost PopularNew MG 4 prototype reviewRoad testsNew MG 4 prototype reviewWe try out the new all-electric MG4 ahead of its arrival in the UK25 Jul 2022New MINI Aceman concept points to 2024 electric MINI crossoverNewsNew MINI Aceman concept points to 2024 electric MINI crossoverNew small MINI electric crossover is due in a few years, and this concept gives a very strong hint of what the production-ready MINI Aceman could look…26 Jul 2022Toyota bZ4X vs Volkswagen vs Hyundai Ioniq 5: 2022 group test reviewCar group testsToyota bZ4X vs Volkswagen vs Hyundai Ioniq 5: 2022 group test reviewDoes Toyota’s all-new bZ4X electric SUV crack the family-friendly formula? 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